YSGA 七月例会の様子その14 (Hexasim)天下統一 Tenkatoitsu『関ケ原の戦い:1600年』

(Hexasim)戦国時代シリーズ第2弾:天下統一

ちゃあ狸さんがルール和訳を更に進めてくださったので、龍虎さんと早速『関ケ原の戦い:1600年』を1ターンだけ試してみた。ただ、あいにくテーブルに空きがなく、畳の上に直敷きしての「雨中の傘でござる」プレイとなってしまったのは、返す返すも申し訳ないことをしてしまった。
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「関ケ原」初期配置
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 今度10月のコマンドに「慶長出羽合戦」を付録ゲームに付ける吉川龍虎さんも、このフランスから来たやべーゲームに興味津々で、忙しい合間を縫ってご来場。遠路はるばる龍虎さんがゲームの中身を見に来たいというので、ちゃあ狸さんが本体を持参して下さった。それで中身を眺めるだけでは勿体無いので、システム理解のためにも1ターンだけプレイしてみた。
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▼龍虎さん曰く『関ヶ原の家康本陣(12駒で構成)を見ても、郎党の本多や大久保に混ざって、遠藤慶隆(2駒)や丹羽氏次、西尾光教といった外様の陣借り勢まであって、その考証の正しさには唸らされる。国産の関ケ原ゲームでも、ここまでこだわったユニット表記は中々無い』とのことだった。
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▼ルール〔21.6〕獰猛なる井伊直政、発動!!
 ゲームの最初の軍勢活性化チットが東軍/軍勢ナンバー1から8までの一つであったならば、直ちにサイコロを一つ振ります。
 賽の目が4−6だったら引いた軍勢のチットを遅参トラックのボックス1に置き、その代わりに軍勢9 (井伊)及び軍勢10 (松平忠吉)を活性化させます。これらの軍勢の命令は直ちに攻撃命令に変更され、軍勢9のうちの一つのユニットを最も近いEZoCに置きます (等距離の場合は徳川方が選択します)。他のユニットは通常通り活性化されます。これらの軍勢チットはカップから取り除かれ待機ボックスに置かれます (このターンではもう活性化されません)。
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 龍虎さんは夕方から飲み会が控えていたので1ターンだけプレイされて引き上げられたが、高く評価されたものか、直後にこのゲームを購入されていた。
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by ysga-blog | 2017-07-01 16:00 | 【戦国日本ゲーム:総合】 | Comments(9)
Commented by ドスマン at 2017-07-08 05:42 x
関ヶ原の家康本陣. It was very important for the designer team to give as much historical flawor as possible. It was a pity that some small clans have been very detailed like Ishida's vanguard and bigger ones were not. We still were limited to 12 counters by design and we wanted to split this big corps in 3 sub organizations. The idea was following:
18A. 前備 with 奥平信昌 (the defender of Nagashino castle), 牧野康成, 大久保忠佐, 高力清長, 丹羽氏次, 内藤信成
18B. 大番 with 徳川家康, 松平重勝, 本多正純, 酒井重忠, 永井直勝, 青山忠成, 西尾吉次, 阿部正次
18C. 後備 and 遊軍備 with 本多康俊, 遠藤慶隆n 酒井家次, etc
Once this was given, François had to take painful design decisions.There are some more details here and there but always without creating a gameplay burden or killing the overall design pattern. And sorry for the mistakes, we made a few (Matsuno Shigemoto spelled Matsuo, etc)
Commented by ysga-blog at 2017-07-10 21:11
 ドスマンさんのhistorical researchの正確さには称賛のほかありません。order of battleを眺めているだけで楽しめます。私の願いは日本でこの「天下統一」が広くプレイされることです。

 ところで質問が2つあるのですが、もし分かれば教えてください。

⑴ clan orderのattack〔8.2〕、movement〔8.3〕、defense〔8.4〕の最後に、EZOCにいるそのclanのcountersは、must attackしないといけませんよね?

⑵ 関ケ原〔21.4.1〕のundecided clansはNo ZOCですが、undecided clansに隣接している敵は、undecided clansを攻撃する義務はありませんか? Not must attack?
Commented by ドスマン at 2017-07-11 14:29 x
(1) Yes the clan units in ZOC will attack (including units in regroup order)
"11.1. ...All enemy units in the ZoC of the activated units must be attacked during this activation phase.
Exception 11.2. Non-obligatory attack :Units that are not in Attack (order) do not have to attack enemy units in their ZoC which are :
• already attacked by another unit, or
• on the other side of a “non-obligatory attack” hexside, as described on the Terrain Effect Chart." You may attack none, one or several of these units.

(2) If an enemy is adjacent to only an undecided clan, they wil attack it (the undecided clan unit is in their enemy's ZOC). Only if there is another unit also adjacent, they can ignore it. So if you don't want them to join Ishida side, stay away.
Commented by 贋魚屋 at 2017-07-12 22:02 x
なんか自信満々に戦闘序列を書かれると、つい重箱の隅を指摘したくなりますね。

恐らくその戦闘序列は明治25年に郷土史家が出版した「関原合戦図示」によるものですね。
どうも現在の通説と異なるようです。

1. 大久保忠佐、酒井家次、青山忠成、牧野康成は中仙道組です。
2. 後備についてですが、奥平信昌が南宮山の抑えで、これには松平忠政(大須賀忠政、榊原康政長男)が加わっています。 
3. 内藤信成は沼津・興国寺城の守備を担当しています。
4. 奥平信昌は中仙道組と東海道組の両説あり。嫡子家昌は中仙道組で、奥平家史では中仙道組とされている。
5. 1万石の久野宗成が参加しているはず。

※遠藤と丹羽については、当日参加は確実のようですが、陣借りしていたという証拠がちょっと見つかりませんでした。
Commented by ドスマン at 2017-07-13 14:36 x
贋魚屋のコメント有難う. Effectively the order of battle is classic, related to the 明治25年 map, and old understanding of the battle.
Is 青山忠成 not prominently displayed in Sekigahara Warland Tokugawa headquarter ? Are 酒井家次 flags not in good place on Sekigahara folding screens ?

If we take a modern position, one has also to rethink the size of the Tokugawa group. How can he have sent major retainers to Nakasendo with his heir, have left troups in Kanto with his other son, and still have as many as 30,000 troops in Sekigahara (do not count Ii Naomasa or Honda Tadakatsu) ? I would advocate to remove 18A or 18C group in a modernized order of battle !

As the hatamoto did not fight at Sekigahara, one will never know. To my opinion, after the war, many families had interest to be seen as well on the Nakasendo with the 2nd Shogun as at Sekigahara.
Commented by 贋魚屋 at 2017-07-18 01:30 x
The army of Tokugawa to Uesugi was divided by three, the front, the main, and the rear.
The front force was taken by Yuuki Hideyasu because his territory was the closest to Uesugi.
The main force was taken by Hidetada including major feudal lords of Tokugawa house.
The rear force was tken by Ieyasu and the guard and reserve.
You know, the main force was at Nakasen-do when the battle of Sekigahara and the rear force was at the main battle at that time; the front force remained at Utsunomiya against Uesugi.
the main force was the attacking formation and the rear formation was the defensive formation.
It means that the Tokugawa formation,which was the rear force, came to Sekigahara and had a few leaders and little flexibility.
So I think you should not give enough leaders to Tokugawa formation at Sekigahara to move actively. They could move and stop as a block and could not move flexibility except Ii Naomasa's corp.
Commented by 贋魚屋 at 2017-07-18 01:52 x
So Sakai Ietsugu and Aoyama Tadashige were popular feudal lords and the members of the main force who would attack.
Ieyasu's force had only Hatamoto who were minor lords.
Most counts were in the main force and individual knights were in the rear force. Sakai clan and Aoyama clan were counts.
Commented by 贋魚屋 at 2017-07-18 01:52 x
Tokugawa territory in Kanto had around three million people and around one third of them were ruled by the counts of Tokugawa house.
Others were ruled by Tokugawa directly and other minor knights, Hatamoto.
Usually such population could supply sixtieth thousands to a hundred thousands soldiers. So Tokugawa house itself could deploy three armies with more than thirtieth thousands soldiers.
The main point is not the number of soldiers but the character of each army. Ieyasu took a huge army but it was not flexible. So Ieyasu had to depend on Toyotomi's Daimyo, ie. Fukushim,
Kuroda, Hosokawa, and so on to attack.
The promotion and expanding of territories of Tokugawa's feudal lords were not because of the battle of Sekigahara.
The expanding Tokugawa's teritory, their territory also expanded proportionately.
Commented by ドスマン at 2017-08-01 23:27 x
贋魚屋iさんthanks for this very interesting discussion. If you whish we could discuss further via my mail: bertrandzoe@wanadoo.fr

Our design whish was to give some granularity to the bigger groups. Generally speaking, the numbers in this battle seem overstated.
But we took the big numbers in the design for Tokugawa, Mori, Ukita and Kobayakawa.

Now if Tokugawa really mustered 30,000 at Sekigahara (which I doubt), including the Ôban guard, he had more than a tight control on his samurai.
Not a single headhunter tried to pursue the Shimazu who were fleeing just in front of them at the end of the battle ! They were too busy recording the pursuit by Ii Naomasa on their smartphone...
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